Confused on visitation

[Grace48]

To make a long story short my hubby of 11 years walked out on me and my two children last October because while he was out of town on a job he got a girl pregnant. He has hid out with the girlfriend in our travel trailer out of state on another job since that time. I have a 15 month old who has spent less than 30 days with his Dad, and a five year old. Since he left in October he has seen the children less than 12 hours and never overnight. For some reason he took me to court for temporary visitation in April, although I let him see the children as he liked before. The judge was made aware of his unwillingness. He was given lite visitation every other weekend. He made no effort after the visitation decision until the Saturday before Mother's Day, when he took them for the day and brought them back. I marked that weekend as his and have marked every other since. The only other time he has seen the children was on my daughters birthday, which was during the week, and I had no problem with him coming to give her gifts and visit (45 minutes). He has become increasingly angry the past  month, as the new baby has been discovered and the our court date was put off. To make matters worse we have rental property and while trying to remove personal items stored in a shed on that property the tenant called the police and he blames that on me. He is hostile and my Dad has been dealing with him for me as of late, as he is out of character.
 All this to say my question is: He wants the children this Saturday. Technically it is not his weekend. He has also moved the trailer from MS and I have not a clue where he lives now. He has been cohabitating with the girlfriend and now baby. Is it ok to let him take the children? My lawyer has said he will ban him from bringing the children around the girlfriend if he does it. I hardly find that moral for my 5 year old. Do I have the right to inquire about where they will be? Can he just come get them anytime during his weekend and not the 6pm fri to 6pm sun? He carries a pistol and I am concerned about his mental state, he has just been so angry and blames me for his financial state.

Any advice would be wonderful! I want my kids to see their dad, don't get me wrong, but I want to do this right. Thank you in advance for your help!!

[TC]

Hello Grace, sorry you are having to deal with this shit, but here is my take.

First, you need to be aggressively discussing this with your attorney, especially the part about him being angry and carrying a gun....if you think the children might be in jeopardy, you might want to consider supervised visitation for awhile.

Second....I am not an attorney, but having dealt with visitation issues in three different states as a result of my own divorce, I have a clue....I think it is well within your rights to ask for and get an address of where the children will be staying while they are with him....it has been my experience that this is fairly standard and your attorney should be able to ensure he ponys up this information.

As for the co-habitation, it is not uncommon for a clause to be put into the divorce decree that states he cannot expose the children to such activities....enforcing that clause is more difficult though, if not almost impossible.  The key there is whether you think it is worth the effort/expense to pursue.  Your children are quite young....eventually it is more than likely they will see him with another woman anyway....so long as he isn't swapping women every other visit, I'm not sure I would worry about it, but that is just me....you need to do what is right for you and your children.

As for the time he picks the children up, it is within your rights to expect him to pick them up at the agreed upon time....give or take 30 minutes unless the changes are mutually agreed upon.

Again, talk to your attorney....find out what is reasonable for you to expect/ask for in your county/state.  Your attorney is the best person to let you know what to expect from the local courts in your area.

There are also some other good people on here who know more about this stuff than I do....so look for additional responses from CollegeDad, MT, Lee and Livalittle...all have excellent advice.

Hope this helps a bit.

TC

[CollegeDad]

Grace,

once you are divorced you will certainly not have to put up with him having your children around him while he has some unrelated female spend the night with him even if she is the mother of your children's half sibling.  It is standard to state that parents will not have unrelated overnight visitors of the opposite sex in divorce decrees.  At least I know this is included in a lot of uncontested divorce decrees.  In your case, since he is having a child with this women he may object to this being included in your final divorce decree.  I guess it will depend on how much he intends to follow through and marry her.  You should definitely push to have this included. 

I don't know but I would think that you can have a pendente lite order established giving you support and laying out visitation until your divorce is final if you haven't already.  I would push to have this "moral" clause put into the pendente lite order.  If you can get it in then you can tell him he can have the children spend the night as soon as he is married to his new girlfriend but as long as he is in that living arrangement he'll have to bring them back to you at night fall.  Your attorney should know whether this can be included in the pedente lite order. 

I believe you'll need to push for some sort of order on the matter from the judge.  Otherwise, I'm afraid you'll have no grounds for prohibiting his visitation with the children.  Also, out of courtesy, he should provide you with information as to his whereabouts when he has the children but, I don't believe he is under any obligation to inform you where he is taking them as long as he is not violating any county line or state line clauses that you may have in either your pendente lite order or your final divorce decree.  Of course this shouldn't stop you from insisting on knowing where your children are going to be and with whom at all times.  You just won't be able to hold him in contempt if he doesn't tell you.  I'm convinced that a judge will back you up if you take a stand on morality and explain the situation to them though. 

I'm short on time, so I'll have to end it here.  This is my read on the situation.  I have not been in your exact situation so I can't speak with absolute confidence about it but we will all learn if you care to share back with us your experience.  Good luck. 

[m_t]

Of course, insisting on that type of clause could well push him to marry the chick - and then you're SOL. So be careful what you wish for. And, of course, that clause will apply to you, as well.

Of course this shouldn't stop you from insisting on knowing where your children are going to be and with whom at all times.

Are you prepared to provide the same courtesy? For every minute of every day that they are with you? Again - be careful what you wish for.

[TC]

Unless I missed something, I think the issue right now is that she does not even have a residential addy for the stbx....don't know about her state, but in mine, that was a standard requirement from the court...I had to have a residential address and way to be contacted filed thorugh the courts and current.

TC

[m_t]

Yeah, I was just addressing some of CD's points.

TECHNICALLY, since the order doesn't specify (apparently) how EOW is decided, Mom doesn't have to allow Dad the time no matter what weekend it is. However, a court may take issue with the denial, especially if it comes with a requirement (by Mom) for an address where the child will be (also not specified by the order). Serously - it's a lousy order that needs to be clarified. But Mom should recognize that Dad WILL get time, and the restrictions she wants placed on him will also be required of her.

[TC]

Yeah, I was just addressing some of CD's points.

TECHNICALLY, since the order doesn't specify (apparently) how EOW is decided, Mom doesn't have to allow Dad the time no matter what weekend it is. However, a court may take issue with the denial, especially if it comes with a requirement (by Mom) for an address where the child will be (also not specified by the order). Serously - it's a lousy order that needs to be clarified. But Mom should recognize that Dad WILL get time, and the restrictions she wants placed on him will also be required of her.

Agree 100% with this.

TC

[Grace48]

Thanks to everyone for the help. Yes, the order to lite visitation sucks. My lawyer promised me the morality clause would be in the order, but it wasn't. When I asked why, he told me we must wait until my stbx brings the children around the gf, then go back to modify. Personally, I think the lawyer forgot on court day. I do realize what is required of him is required of me and that is fine. Anything else would not be fair. I want my kids to see their Dad, I am not trying to prevent visitation, but I want a wholesome environment for my children until this is settled. Once the divorce is final, I am sure the gf will spend time with them and most likely she will not be the last gf he has. I also realize that a morality clause in the divorce decree will possibly force them to marry. As long as it is reasonably moral, I am fine.

I don't want to know a complete itenerary if and when dad takes the children, just where he is physically staying with them if he chooses to take them. I do tell him when I go out of town and will be away from home for more than a few days, although he does not call but once a twice a month. I am trying to do this as maturely as possible.

Stbx has no permanent address. He has set up a mailbox on hunting property for mail ( no residence is there only a storage shed) . His mother forwards the mail to him wherever he is on the job. He is in serious avoidance and hiding. My lawyer is aware of this and will deal with it in court I am sure. My question was could I ask stbx legally where he intends to take them and when will he return? The order say FRi 6 until Sun 6, but the one time he did it he only wanted Sat and did not say where he was going.  Again, I am trying to do what is fair and not be a hounding vindictive Mom.

Lastly, my real question was if he got a lite visitation order the end of April, called and came and got the children for the day Saturday May 10th, and I marked every other weekend since that time, even though he has not taken any more weekends, do I have to let him have them on his  non weekend and reset the schedule on his whim? I don't want to be rude, just firm. He forced his hand on a schedule. lets stick to it. I don't want to discourage him, but we all need to play by the rules. Thanks again for your honest views!

[chill]

We always went with court order.  So if it wasn't his weekend, he couldn't just come and get the kids.  I was a firm believer in a schedule, especially when they were younger, and their needs being met.  Now, if it isn't in the best interest of the children, and it's your weekend, I don't see what the problem is.

But make sure you are not using the kids to punish their dad.  Have good reasons for doing everything you do when the kids are involved.  Kind of like an out of body experience. You leave your emotions aside, and look at the kids best interest

[CollegeDad]

It does seem suspicious that your attorney requires him to bring your children around the girlfriend before he can go back to the judge and ask for further restrictions on your STBX in light of the fact that your court date was moved due to discovery of the new baby.  Unless your stbx is trying to abandon the new girlfriend and baby, sooner or later he is going to have your children around her.  You are probably right.  Your attorney dropped the ball on you. 

As far as his visitation schedule, I don't know what your order says exactly but sometimes orders will say every other weekend and sometimes they will say first and third weekend of the month.  There may be some additional words that basically say the schedule will be followed unless changed by prior agreement between the parents.  I believe however you want to manage it will be fine as long as you can show that you haven't denied your stbx his right to visitation.  Keep records of informing him of his times, his acknowledgement of those times, and then his follow through at those times so he can't later say that you never let him see the kids.  Its tough to plan activities with the children when you never know if the stbx is going to show up and want to have them for the day just because he feels like it that day.  Kudos to you for going ahead and trying to establish structure and stability for your children so early on. 

Hopefully, trusting the kids with the STBX will get easier as the chaos in his life starts to get sorted out and especially as the kids get older.  The sooner that he can settle this divorce with you, decide where he is going to live, and figure out if he is going to marry this girl the better I believe that it is going to be for everyone. 

[livealittle]

ok, I didn't read all the replys....


1 - what state are you in, Grace?
2 - in Madison County, Alabama there is something called "Standard Parenting Clauses" that are attached to every single divorce with children involved - uncontested or not.  It has the "morality clause" in it.  Enforcing it is a different story, but it's in there.
3 - if you want a copy of the "Standard Parenting Clauses" for Madison County, Alabama, I'll send them to you, pm me your address.

[Grace48]

I live in Mobile county, AL.

When my lawyer went to bat for me on his visitation hearing the girlfriend was known about, but not the baby. I have considered writing a formal letter asking to have action put into place for a moral code considering that there is now a baby and it is in the
open, not a secret and seeing if he could declare a real resisdence and/or place of visitation.

My Dad called the stbx and let him know it was not his weekend. STBx was angry and yelled and cursed sporatically as he struggled to contain his anger. His real issue is to get me in person or on the phone as he is just so angry. We offer to switch weekends or reset the schedule and let him have the kids, but he wasn't worried about the kids as much as getting me to call him.

I do think my lawyer dropped the ball on the moral code. I talked to the lawyer yesterday and he said that being as stbx had not seen the children in a while he could force his hand with the judge and get an emergency order in place and stbx could see them this weekend, if I liked it or not and reset our "every other" schedule. I don't think it fair he can reset the schedule at his will if he misses a week, but I am hoping the official court decree will be much more specific. Although he was rude and irrational the past two weeks with many temper spurts, my lawyer said I had no grounds to feel threatened by stbx unless he was specifically threatening me, regardless of if he carries a gun.  He suggested meeting at neutral ground (Dad's house or police station) and letting someone else facilitate the switch to keep emotions down. The lawyer said I was wasting his time on trivial matters, I was letting the stbx scare me with hollow threats.

So the long and short is I called STBX and offered to do whatever he wished to accomodate him and he refused this weekend and said he would come get them next Sat. He did acknowledge the schedule and knew it was an off weekend. He will call to make arrangements. He gave no specifics so I didn't broach meeting places. I am not certain he will really follow through. He left his options open, which is fine. I think the children is not the issue, but just getting to me. I did what is right and was cordial and pleasant as possible. Thanks for the help and please keep it coming. I feel lost at times.

[TC]

My ex and I had a very volitile relationship.....as a result, I insisted that children exchanges be conducted at the local cop shot.  Cop shop was always more than willing and it definately de-escalated any hostilities by either of us, which was much better on the children.

Food for thought.

TC

[Grace48]

Update on this situation:

STBX came and got the children at the police station yesterday. We both had our Dads with us to be sure he behaved. He said he brought his Dad so I wouldn't be scared of him, ha. He took the kids just for the day Saturday and did introduced the girlfriend and the new baby. Now I am ready to go back for the morality clause. My lawyer originally said STBX couldn't let kids have any contact with the girlfriend until the divorce is final and then no overnight contact until they marry. I was wondering if Lee would comment on this situation.

Also, can I  request for a real, permanent phsical address, that is kept current, rather than the storage shop on hunting land with a mail  box I have now.

He also shorted me $300 on the child support he has been giving me (no court order). Should I throw that in as well? I am in a bad way financially (my post on the financial board goes into more detail on that...)  Any help is appreciated!!

[TC]

Lee can speak from an attorney's point of view, but from someone who has spent a fair amount of time in court.....you can have the morality clause put in...it won't hurt...getting it enforced though will be like pulling your own teath.....hell, pulling your own teeth would probably be easier....bout your only hope there is to hire a PI to follow him around 24/7 with a video camera and even then, not sure the court would be willing to do anything about it.

As for the 300.00 he shorted you...unless you have an order, very doubtful that anything can be done....you really do need to get a temp support order in force...yesterday was way too late. 

As for the address...if he has given you a legal address, I'm not sure there is much the court can do....Lee is best to address that one for sure.

TC